"Remove encyclopedic content"
[edit]I contest the removal of over 2K bytes of content by @Ground Zero:. I also request an explanation of why it's "encyclopedic"; that's one of those weasel words that shouldn't be used without additional clarification. Streets are not "encyclopedic"; where they go, what neighborhoods they go through, and what bus lines run along them are clearly of interest to a travel guide. Purplebackpack89 02:53, 29 March 2026 (UTC)
- Here is the edit that Purplebackpack89 is questioning. It is a list describing 12 roads. I think this is overly detailed, but will respect the consensus of other editors. Ground Zero (talk) 03:09, 29 March 2026 (UTC)
- Q: how important are these roads that run through the city? That would influence my thoughts on whether it would be useful to include them or not. //shb (t | c | m) 08:38, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- @SHB2000 What's your criteria for an important road? Purplebackpack89 16:05, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- More like are these roads seen as landmarks? (landmarks in the sense that it's used for direction in everyday conversation) //shb (t | c | m) 00:15, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- @SHB2000 What's your criteria for an important road? Purplebackpack89 16:05, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- I support the removal, per WV:Avoid long lists, WV:Tone#Be concise, WV:Goals and non-goals#Non-goals, ttcf. Ibaman (talk) 12:00, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- From my read of the long list rule, the suggestion seems to be less to delete long lists and more to break them up into shorter ones. But some things just don't break up very well. Purplebackpack89 16:04, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- WV:Goals and non-goals#Non-goals: Wikivoyage is neither an atlas, nor yellow pages, nor a web directory, nor an encyclopaedia. Long lists that are difficult to break down, normally, are best deleted, yes. Ibaman (talk) 17:00, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- From the avoid long lists page: "When they exceed that length it is time to consider breaking them up or pruning them." It doesn't say delete them Purplebackpack89 21:09, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- each of the "not a..." comes with an although or other caveats. Taken wholly literally, the non-goals forbids virtually everything Purplebackpack89 21:10, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- I really don't see how a word-based description of streets is better than a map, which we already have in the article. We do not have such lists in other city articles. And other travel guides don't have lists of streets. If we were to start adding them, I would give up on Wikivoyage as a travel guide. It would be far more useful to travellers to provide an introductory paragraph that explains why they might want to visit Whittier. That's what a travel guide should do. Ground Zero (talk) 21:46, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- I suggest you to check out how this is done in articles for bigger, more visited cities such as Dallas, Denver, Houston, Phoenix or San Diego. Most will be three or less paragraphs long. None will feature bulleted lists of streets. These are ugly and unwanted in a travel guide, these are what is called "encyclopaedic", exactly. Ibaman (talk) 21:47, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- there's no reason it HAS to be done that way. And I again admonish you to use a word other than the trite catch-all "encyclopedic" Purplebackpack89 22:11, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- I suggest you to check out how this is done in articles for bigger, more visited cities such as Dallas, Denver, Houston, Phoenix or San Diego. Most will be three or less paragraphs long. None will feature bulleted lists of streets. These are ugly and unwanted in a travel guide, these are what is called "encyclopaedic", exactly. Ibaman (talk) 21:47, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- I really don't see how a word-based description of streets is better than a map, which we already have in the article. We do not have such lists in other city articles. And other travel guides don't have lists of streets. If we were to start adding them, I would give up on Wikivoyage as a travel guide. It would be far more useful to travellers to provide an introductory paragraph that explains why they might want to visit Whittier. That's what a travel guide should do. Ground Zero (talk) 21:46, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- WV:Goals and non-goals#Non-goals: Wikivoyage is neither an atlas, nor yellow pages, nor a web directory, nor an encyclopaedia. Long lists that are difficult to break down, normally, are best deleted, yes. Ibaman (talk) 17:00, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- From my read of the long list rule, the suggestion seems to be less to delete long lists and more to break them up into shorter ones. But some things just don't break up very well. Purplebackpack89 16:04, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- Q: how important are these roads that run through the city? That would influence my thoughts on whether it would be useful to include them or not. //shb (t | c | m) 08:38, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
"Encyclopedic" is used by Wikivoyagers as shorthand for "comprehensive, exhaustive, all-inclusive, boring, excessively detailed, dry, or dull". It is not an interesting or lively way to write a travel guide. Ground Zero (talk) 22:32, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- In many cases, editors would be better off using those words instead of "ENCYCLOPEDIC"
- You're basically saying people use "ENCYCLOPEDIC" to give more credence to opposing thing they don't like
- Not all of those things you've listed are necessarily bad or forbidden
- As written, none of the criteria in the "not an encyclopedia" bullet point particularly apply here
- And, FWIW, as written, the non-goals fail the "avoid long lists" rule Purplebackpack89 22:54, 30 March 2026 (UTC)
- # You're basically saying people use "ENCYCLOPEDIC" to give more credence to opposing thing they don't like'. I am not saying that at all. Don't misrepresent what I wrote. What I wrote is there for all to see.
- It's time to move on from this argument, and spend our time building a travel guide instead. Ground Zero (talk) 02:30, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- as GZ said, a nice intro emphasizing that some scenes of Back To The Future were filmed here, maybe an Understand section, would be a much more valuable addition than a list of streets. I cannot agree more. Here is a link to the guideline WV:Small city article template to provide some inspiration. Ibaman (talk) 00:17, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- Why are you ordering me around on how to write the article of the city I live in? Purplebackpack89 03:48, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- Wikivoyage works on consensus. No-one owns any article, not even someone who lives in the city the article is about. Ground Zero (talk) 11:42, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- Have you read the WV:Here to build a travel guide policy? Please with cherries on top, do it. Ibaman (talk) 11:48, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- that's rather an assumption of bad faith, @Ibaman. Are you saying that because I don't want to build it exactly the way you like it, I'm not here to build it at all? Are you saying I'm not allowed to discuss and advocate for my edits? As @Ikan Kekek told you in a past discussion, my edits (including the one with adding the streets here) were clearly in good faith. On the other hand, I'm not sure the way you approach me is: when dealing me, you perennially talk down to me and act as though you're a supereditor and I'm not, a behavior you were again warned about in a previous discussion. Purplebackpack89 12:49, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- Don't put words in my mouth. I'm showing you this website's policy, which has been discussed and approved by consensus over the years. I'm an admin who cares very much about the cleanliness and homogenity of this website's content. That's all I care about. I'm "trying to approach" attention and respect to Wikivoyage policy, guidelines and consensus. Take responsibility for your words' tone, instead of pointing fingers. Ibaman (talk) 13:01, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- Take responsibility yourself, @Ibaman! Your behavior and tone is NOT above criticism and you have GOT to work on how you interact with other editors, as well as exploring alternatives to deleting entire articles or large amounts of content! Purplebackpack89 13:16, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- Don't put words in my mouth. I'm showing you this website's policy, which has been discussed and approved by consensus over the years. I'm an admin who cares very much about the cleanliness and homogenity of this website's content. That's all I care about. I'm "trying to approach" attention and respect to Wikivoyage policy, guidelines and consensus. Take responsibility for your words' tone, instead of pointing fingers. Ibaman (talk) 13:01, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- that's rather an assumption of bad faith, @Ibaman. Are you saying that because I don't want to build it exactly the way you like it, I'm not here to build it at all? Are you saying I'm not allowed to discuss and advocate for my edits? As @Ikan Kekek told you in a past discussion, my edits (including the one with adding the streets here) were clearly in good faith. On the other hand, I'm not sure the way you approach me is: when dealing me, you perennially talk down to me and act as though you're a supereditor and I'm not, a behavior you were again warned about in a previous discussion. Purplebackpack89 12:49, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- Have you read the WV:Here to build a travel guide policy? Please with cherries on top, do it. Ibaman (talk) 11:48, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- Wikivoyage works on consensus. No-one owns any article, not even someone who lives in the city the article is about. Ground Zero (talk) 11:42, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
A lot of listings here are so old that they do not have lastedit dates, which we have been using since 2015. Are these places still open? Are the hours and prices still correct? Updating these listings would be useful for travellers. Ground Zero (talk) 13:45, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- @Ground Zero I updated one of them earlier this morning. I also added Rodeo 72, which opened only a few months ago... Purplebackpack89 13:52, 31 March 2026 (UTC)
- I looked at the edit in question and have to agree with the others that it's overly long and detailed for most travelers. I say that as someone who hasn't visited Whittier but is a travel guide user. It would be different if each street description explained what was special about each street, but listings might work better for that. If you look at the guide to Harlem and Upper Manhattan, you'll see that a few streets are mentioned not as a way to drive around but as interesting streets to walk on. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:03, 31 March 2026 (UTC)