Do we really want articles about cuisine? How can they add value to the relevant articles on our big sister website Wikipedia? For e.g. architecture and religions we try to focus on the relevance for travel, mainly by listing lots of destinations. For cuisine it seems harder to do that, or not? JuliasTravels (talk) 19:21, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- If there are regional or local specialties, pointing those out can be travel-related. However, that's not what this "article" does right now, and I don't see the point of it. And if we are to keep it, it would be outrageous for the "Beverages" section not to mention sake and choshu. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:10, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- But would that kind of information not simply belong in our Japan articles? What's the added value of a travel topic? JuliasTravels (talk) 13:46, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think that mentioning each prefecture's local specialty would be well beyond the scope of the Japan article, so if there are sufficient local specialties, a separate article on Japanese cuisine would be justified. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:29, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Not that I particularly mind having these articles, but wouldn't they then become a copy of the Eat sections in the prefecture articles? Anyway, I'm happy to wait and see, but perhaps we should at least develop a good example before we start creating articles for all cuisines. JuliasTravels (talk) 18:27, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- That's a very reasonable point of view. Perhaps someone who knows a lot about Japanese cuisine, and especially regional specialties, would like to develop this article? Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:34, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Not that I particularly mind having these articles, but wouldn't they then become a copy of the Eat sections in the prefecture articles? Anyway, I'm happy to wait and see, but perhaps we should at least develop a good example before we start creating articles for all cuisines. JuliasTravels (talk) 18:27, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- I think that mentioning each prefecture's local specialty would be well beyond the scope of the Japan article, so if there are sufficient local specialties, a separate article on Japanese cuisine would be justified. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:29, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
Purpose of this article
[edit]I'd like everyone reading this post to have a look at w:Japanese cuisine and some of the linked articles. I would submit that we do not need a reference article for Japanese cuisine on this site, as Wikipedia provides ample information we could simply link to. Only if there's a specific travel-related angle are articles like this one useful. Right now, I don't see the point at all. Should we do a vfd for the "cuisine of" articles, or is there someone who would like to provide a good rationale for them and make them relevant and truly useful? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:57, 4 November 2016 (UTC)
Webm moved from article
[edit]Wikivoyage:Image policy (see the "Image formats" and "Other media" sections) does not permit the use of video clips in articles. I hope that can be changed within a few years, but for now, I have moved this link to a webm here:
Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:11, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Very good
[edit]This has become a very good article. It could still benefit from more detail, such as more focus on regional specialties with links to articles for the places where they are made. But at this point, I think this stands as somewhat of an example that other cuisine articles could be usefully compared with and as a basis for editing them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:17, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- Reviewing the history, Othello95 is the person who deserves the huge bulk of the credit for the quality of this article. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:19, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
Guide?
[edit]Is this a Guide yet? If not, what needs to be done to make it a Guide? It's certainly a travel article and if made a Guide, it might be a decent FFT. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:59, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- I think more is needed on Japanese table manners and dining etiquette. You expect to find detailed information on how to eat and drink in a travel guide, in contrast to an encyclopedia article. Issues like how to hold your chopsticks, are you allowed to eat certain things with your hands, chewing your food noisily and slurping, eating the last grain of rice, how to conduct yourself in tea ceremonies, should you pour drinks for others before your own, etc. A quick Google search brought up a few interesting observations [1] [2] [3]. Many travellers seek an authentic eating experience and want to immerse themselves in the country's dining culture. There is a little bit of information on this scattered throughout the article but dining etiquette and norms could perhaps have its own section or at least be elaborated. Gizza (roam) 01:44, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- Very good points. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:15, 19 June 2018 (UTC)
- Should we move/copy the information from Japan#Etiquette to this article? —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:33, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- It's always best to summarize or rephrase, but that's certainly useful information. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:16, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- Wow, this article is long. On its own, that doesn't make it a guide article, though. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 18:30, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
- At 88,000 bytes, it's not that long. Eating is one of the best reasons to go to Japan, IMO. I'll leave it to others to decide whether this is a guide or not. Ground Zero (talk) 00:54, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
- I was not intending to criticize, if that's what you thought. I was just remarking — plenty of information is a good thing, really. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:18, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
- Oh no, I didn't take that personally. I didn't create this article. Ground Zero (talk) 01:24, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
- I was not intending to criticize, if that's what you thought. I was just remarking — plenty of information is a good thing, really. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 01:18, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
- At 88,000 bytes, it's not that long. Eating is one of the best reasons to go to Japan, IMO. I'll leave it to others to decide whether this is a guide or not. Ground Zero (talk) 00:54, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
[edit]The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:51, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Banner
[edit]While It features many dishes the current banner is very low quality and unfit to represent one of the world's finest cuisines.
Tai123.123 (talk) 06:57, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- I like one the most, which is what I associate with Japanese cuisine most. However, I'm wondering if you have a better image with some sushi in it, perhaps because that's what a lot of westerners associate Japanese cuisine in it. Would be nice if it had something alongside it though.
- After that, my second favourite is two and the third one is zero and then three (because the background is blurry). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 08:03, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- Suggestion 1 is very good, then Suggestion 4 over Suggestion 2 by a nose, then Current, and Suggestion 3 clearly takes up the rear, as little is highly visible in it. [Edited] Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:12, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- @SHB2000 Made a sushi banner. It could be better but most other sushi banners I made were either of low image quality or had a lack of negative space making the sushi hard to recognize, also its hard to fit both the rice and fish of Nigirizushi which were the better quality images. Tai123.123 (talk) 15:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- I see. If that's the case, then 1, 4, 2, 0 and then 3. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:28, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- I now prefer 1, 5, 4, 2, 0 and then 3. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:37, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- I see. If that's the case, then 1, 4, 2, 0 and then 3. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 20:28, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- 1, 2, 0. I made the current banner (0) using my own photo of plastic food taken in 2005, when cameras weren't so good - plastic food is a common window display in Japan. AlasdairW (talk) 21:32, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- 1, 4, 2, 0, 3. Thanks to Tai123.123 for taking the initiative to improve this banner. Ground Zero (talk) 23:24, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- 5, 4, 1. I have referred to 4 and I made a new banner Suggestion 5. I focused on sushi, but also included another Japanese culture, Zaru. --Tmv (talk) 00:18, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'm liking 5 best now. So 5, 1, 4, 2, 0, 3. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:21, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- 1,5,4,2,3,0 for me Tai123.123 (talk) 00:24, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'm liking 5 best now. So 5, 1, 4, 2, 0, 3. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:21, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- 5,1,2 for me. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:20, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- 5,1,2 for me too. The dog2 (talk) 19:48, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Looks like five had the most support and so I went ahead and replaced it. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 02:42, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
The emperor rang with a meat feast
[edit]"the emperor itself rang in 1872 with a meat feast". "rang"? What does this mean? Nurg (talk) 02:20, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
- It could mean that he celebrated the New Year of 1872 by having a meat feast. I don't know if the term "to ring in the new year" (= to celebrate new year) is recognised in Japan. AlasdairW (talk) 22:35, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
- You're right. That hadn't occurred to me. Have clarified the text. Thanks. Nurg (talk) 00:27, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
"No Jewish community in Japan"
[edit]I don't think that's right. See w:History of the Jews in Japan. A very small community is more like it. And there aren't "no kosher establishments." See https://www.totallyjewishtravel.com/kosherrestaurants-TJ1445-Tokyo_Japan-Kosher_Eateries.html. Very few would be more accurate. Comments? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:53, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- I think the current state of the article is fine: the Jewish community is tiny and you'll have your work cut out for you trying to find certified kosher food. Jpatokal (talk) 07:13, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- Why would you object to "there is a very small Jewish community in Japan" instead of "there is no local Jewish community in Japan"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:04, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- "As there is no local Jewish community in Japan, kosher food is very hard to come by. That said, there is a community of Jewish expatriates from Israel and Western countries..." - The following sentence states that there is a Jewish community that is made up of foreigners, so I think the use of the word "local" in "no local Jewish community" is intended to mean that Japan does not have any Jewish communities of native Japanese. Perhaps replacing "local" with "native" or "native Japanese" would make that distinction clearer? ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:47, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- If you look at the list of famous Jews in the Wikipedia article I linked, some have had Japanese names. I realize this is a minor point, but it's best not to be so definitive about no Japanese people being Jews. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:06, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- It doesn't say there are no Japanese Jews; it says there are no established communities of them which the WP article doesn't seem to dispute. (Looking at the 5 or so Japanese names listed, one is actually American, one is Argentinian, one is Seagal's daughter, one moved to the US and married a Jew, etc., so they don't seem to list any that were born as Japanese Jews or have experience growing up Jewish in Japan. This isn't really a point. I was just curious if any were born and raised in Japan)
- Do you think changing "local" to "native" makes it easier to understand. I think it does add clarity to what I think is the point being made: "As there is no native Jewish community in Japan, kosher food is very hard to come by. That said, there is a community of Jewish expatriates from Israel and Western countries..." ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:33, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- If it's important to point out that most Jews in Japan are expatriates, "Since there is a small Jewish community in Japan that is mostly composed of expatriates..." would be the clearest way to state that. Do we really want to be passing judgment on what makes someone a native of Japan beyond being born there? I would assume that some children with non-Japanese names are born in Japan. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:32, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- If you look at the list of famous Jews in the Wikipedia article I linked, some have had Japanese names. I realize this is a minor point, but it's best not to be so definitive about no Japanese people being Jews. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:06, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- "As there is no local Jewish community in Japan, kosher food is very hard to come by. That said, there is a community of Jewish expatriates from Israel and Western countries..." - The following sentence states that there is a Jewish community that is made up of foreigners, so I think the use of the word "local" in "no local Jewish community" is intended to mean that Japan does not have any Jewish communities of native Japanese. Perhaps replacing "local" with "native" or "native Japanese" would make that distinction clearer? ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:47, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- Why would you object to "there is a very small Jewish community in Japan" instead of "there is no local Jewish community in Japan"? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:04, 2 June 2025 (UTC)
- I agree with Ikan here; I don't think using absolute terms is particularly helpful in this instance. //shb (t | c | m) 11:53, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- I guess in theory, an ethnic Japanese can convert to Judaism and become a Jew. But the situation is different from say Singapore or Hong Kong, where a tiny community of local Jews exists (albeit vastly outnumbered by expatriate Jews). The local Jews in Singapore and Hong Kong trace their origins to colonial-era Baghdadi Jewish immigrants, so they have been there for several generations and are firmly rooted in their respective hometowns today. Jewish residents in Japan are a much more recent phenomenon, and there doesn't seem to be an actual community that is truly rooted in Japan yet The dog2 (talk) 19:20, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- In practice, anyone who can convince a rabbi of their seriousness can convert to Judaism. But did you read w:History of the Jews in Japan#Early settlements?
- [Quote]Jewish travelers entered Japan as early as the 1700s, however no permanent settlements were established until after Commodore Matthew C. Perry's arrival in 1853. Early Jewish settlers were located in Yokohama. By 1895, this community had about fifty families, and dedicated the first synagogue in the country. Jews also settled in Nagasaki during the 1880s, which, as a significant port town, was more accessible to Jews fleeing Russian pogroms.
- Although the Jewish community in Nagasaki was much larger than the one in Yokohama, the effects of the Russo-Japanese War resulted in them largely disintegrating and passing on their Torah scroll to the Jewish community in Kobe. Until 1923, the Jewish community in Yokohama became the largest, however after the 1923 Great Kantō earthquake, many relocated to Kobe, resulting in the Kobe Jewish community growing significantly.
- The Jewish community in Kobe in the early to mid 1900s consisted mainly of Russian, German, and Baghdadi Jews from what is currently Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Iran, and other places in Central Asia and the Middle East. Jewish people from Central and Eastern Europe came to Japan for economic reasons, and in the 1930s, the developments in the continent.
- The Jewish community in Tokyo was small until after World War II, during the American occupation of Japan and afterwards.[Unquote]
- The 1880s are almost 150 years ago. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:26, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- OK then. I'm fine if people want to tone it down so it doesn't come across as so absolutist. I don't know how reliable ChatGPT is but it says that there's hardly any descendants of the old pre-World War II Jewish communities left in Japan since most of them emigrated by the 1970s, and those who remain are likely completely assimilated into Japanese society. In Singapore and Hong Kong, you can still find descendants of the old colonial-era Baghdadi Jewish mercantile elites whose families never left, and they are still identifiably Jewish. The owner of Hong Kong's famed Peninsula Hotel is a prominent example. The dog2 (talk) 20:54, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- This all seems pretty irrelevant to travelers. How about we drop the pointless local/expat distinction entirely and just say that the Jewish community in Japan is tiny? Jpatokal (talk) 02:09, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- I couldn't agree more. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:10, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- While I think some of the above might be of interest in an article specific to Jewish Japan travel, this is an article about JAPANESE CUISINE, so yes, it's not important. The main point for this dietary restriction, where it is listed, is that it's not easy, so assistance might be needed. I edited based on the above. As always, anyone can tinker with it if they wish. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:15, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'm satisfied. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:31, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- While I think some of the above might be of interest in an article specific to Jewish Japan travel, this is an article about JAPANESE CUISINE, so yes, it's not important. The main point for this dietary restriction, where it is listed, is that it's not easy, so assistance might be needed. I edited based on the above. As always, anyone can tinker with it if they wish. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 10:15, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- I couldn't agree more. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:10, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- This all seems pretty irrelevant to travelers. How about we drop the pointless local/expat distinction entirely and just say that the Jewish community in Japan is tiny? Jpatokal (talk) 02:09, 4 June 2025 (UTC)
- OK then. I'm fine if people want to tone it down so it doesn't come across as so absolutist. I don't know how reliable ChatGPT is but it says that there's hardly any descendants of the old pre-World War II Jewish communities left in Japan since most of them emigrated by the 1970s, and those who remain are likely completely assimilated into Japanese society. In Singapore and Hong Kong, you can still find descendants of the old colonial-era Baghdadi Jewish mercantile elites whose families never left, and they are still identifiably Jewish. The owner of Hong Kong's famed Peninsula Hotel is a prominent example. The dog2 (talk) 20:54, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
- I guess in theory, an ethnic Japanese can convert to Judaism and become a Jew. But the situation is different from say Singapore or Hong Kong, where a tiny community of local Jews exists (albeit vastly outnumbered by expatriate Jews). The local Jews in Singapore and Hong Kong trace their origins to colonial-era Baghdadi Jewish immigrants, so they have been there for several generations and are firmly rooted in their respective hometowns today. Jewish residents in Japan are a much more recent phenomenon, and there doesn't seem to be an actual community that is truly rooted in Japan yet The dog2 (talk) 19:20, 3 June 2025 (UTC)